For Friday (MWF classes)/Tuesday (TR classes): Into Thin Air, pp. 207-254
NOTE: These are our last questions for the novel; we will do an in-class writing for the final chapters, so be sure to answer these, as they will definitely help you on Paper #2.
Answer 2 of the 4 questions that follow:
1. Why did the various tourist groups get so disorganized and lost so quickly? Hall and other had established district timelines and protocols to follow to avoid these very mishaps. So why did they go off schedule? Was any one person responsible for this? Was it more the fault of the guides or the clients?
2. These chapters of the book offer a strange double portrait of Bourkeev: at one point he seems totally indifferent to the clients, someone who simply “cut and ran” (218), but on the other hand, he selflessly risked his life to save people high on the mountain when no one else would help him. How can this be the same person? Why was he willing to risk his life after the fact when he wouldn’t help people before they got in trouble?
3. On page 253, one of the Japanese climbers refuses to help people dying on the mountain with extra food or oxygen. As he explains, “We were too tired to help. Above 8,000 meters is not a place where people can afford morality.” Is this part of the culture of climbing—that since risking your life is part of the experience, you can’t expect rescue or basic humanity? Do all the climbers basically respect this code of ethics? Does Krakauer?
4. How does Krakauer help readers understand that his own story, though carefully observed and researched, might not be 100% accurate? Where does he get information wrong, and where do others? What makes writing this story uniquely difficult and often hurtful to the people involved?
Elyse Marquardt
ReplyDeleteQuestion 2: We cannot ever know for sure what changed in Bourkeev's mind when he started trying to save others at the risk of his own life. Perhaps he realized how wrong he had been earlier, when he mercilessly ignored the struggles of his clients and fellow climbers. At any rate, in the time of crisis, he discovered a bit of humanity still inside him, and he used it to deny himself and risk his life for his fellow human beings. He was one of the very few who chose to do this; not many of the other mountaineers would have been so brave and selfless.
Question 3: Apparently, according to the book, "survival of the fittest" is the code by which most mountaineers begin living once they reach the dangerous point of their expedition. Since they themselves have risked life and limb to reach this spot, they expect others to do the same and they do not want those others to burden everyone else with their struggles - they are all going through excruciating hardships by this time. True, a few of the more selfless souls in the group try to go rescue some of the people who are stranded in the storm. But there are only two or three of these, while the group numbers far more than that. Krakauer expresses his self-loathing and his pity for the victims when he realizes that he could possibly have helped and didn't; but I think, had he personally been given the option of either saving another or saving himself, he would have probably chosen to save himself. He seems to have the same mentality as most of the other climbers have: every man for himself.
Faith Armstrong
ReplyDelete2. In my opinion, I would say that Bourkeev probably didn't want to help them until after they had gotten into trouble because he wanted everyone to try to climb the mountain on their own. He probably felt as though he would dragging someone up the mountain had he offered help at the beginning on the journey, but whenever he realized that they were in trouble he decided that it was time for him to help.
3. No morality seems to be the code of conduct on the mountain. Although not everyone is like that, most climbers are. They get up there, and they end up not being willing to risk their lives to help one another. I think Krakauer probably feels the same way. He probably doesn't want to help anyone.
Shelby Attebery
ReplyDeleteQ2: I think he was a little selfish but also a little truthful at the same time. I think since he knew he was a better climber, he wanted to beat the group so he could warm and rest. But also, he did really need to warm and rest in case someone did get into some sort of trouble. I think he also wanted to make them do it for themselves with very little help. He wanted them to actually have to work for what they wanted instead of in a sense handing it to them.
Q3: I think that when you decide to climb something that large, you should know and be well prepared for what risk may come with your decision. I don’t think it’s right not to help someone, nor do I really think it’s wrong. I think until you are in the situation you really can’t say either. People may think this man is terrible for not helping another person, but as it says the lack of oxygen will start to mess with your thinking and reasoning ability. You may even start to just not care about much at all. I think Krakauer didn’t really care either because anyone that did actually care would have helped them regardless of what anyone else thought or said. I think all climbers are focused on one specific goal and they will let nothing get in the way of that.
Amber Simpson
ReplyDelete2.) He probably wanted the climbers to get the experience of a real, not crutched along climber. He wanted them to push themselves and accomplish the hike for themselves, and only help if it was seriously needed. I would say that was probably the reason, or because he is the guide, and it is his job to take care of them. He probably didn’t want to get sued for being careless or end up having someone’s blood on his hands.
3.) Yes, I think that is part of the culture of climbing. If you plan to climb a mountain,
do some research and know what you’re getting yourself into. If you read reviews about it being extremely cold and people dying of hypothermia, bring layers and layers of clothing! If you read about people running out of food, bring more than enough food for you! Climbing is kind of a one-man hobby; you don’t need a team to get to the top of a mountain. Therefore, you shouldn’t rely on others to take care of you. It was your choice to climb the mountain; bring what you need to bring—probably more than what you need, just in case. It’s better to be prepared than to be stuck above 8,000 meters and asking someone if they’ll crutch you along while they’re probably just as weak as you are.
Q2. Bourkeev wanted people to do things for themselves. Take care of themselves and try to fight for their own lives. But when it came down to it, when the weather would have even risked his own life and killed any of the pros. Upon realizing the seriousness of the situation he started to risk his own life to help save his fellow climbers.
ReplyDeleteQ3.
“every man for themselves” seems to be the code of climbers. Especially for the hard core climbers. There are few whom are willing to risk their own neck for someone else but there is few, more or less one in 20 people who would risk it. And most of these people seem to be the Sherpas who are loyal to one person only. (lopsung) For Krakauer, he realizes he could have helped but chose not to and seems he believes in the code of climbers.
2. Before these people got in trouble, Bourkeev was pushing them as if they were experienced climbers, and not just clients that paid to see the top of the mountain safely. He went on ahead and made it to Camp Four and was set up drinking tea when some of the others started to arrive. When he learned the whereabouts of the lost survivors, he knew he had the strength to go search for them. Of course, everyone at camp was either too exhausted to go, or too sick, so that is why he left alone. He did this, not to better himself, but because he had sympathy for those lost ones, and a drive to see them down alive.
ReplyDelete3. Some of the major climbers would say that, "To help someone who is dieing is actually killing yourself a little bit." They would explain that you brought what you needed, nothing more and nothing less. If I, as a climber, was looking to climb Everest, I myself would come prepared for most situations, if not 99% of them. These people, however, were not as prepared as they should have been. I don't believe that all climbers respect that ethic, on the case that Bourkeev went out in a blinding blizzard to save someone, if not all of them if he could have.
Ryan Jolly
ReplyDeleteQuestion 2:
I believe that Boukreev had a very different view of the responsibilities that come with being a guide than we do. He seems to think that he is doing the clients a favor by not helping them and letting them climb for themselves. However, when he realizes the extent of the trouble that everyone is in, he is willing to help rescue the stranded climbers, even without help from anyone else. This shows that he was in fact very willing to support the team, but maybe his way of support was simply very differently defined than ours, which could be caused from a cultural difference.
Question 3:
There is definitely a belief among climbers that if someone is climbing a mountain, they are voluntarily risking their life and must care for themselves once on the mountain, simply because you cannot expect someone else, who is equally exhausted as you are, to care for themselves and you. It seems that many within this high-altitude culture have no concept of "teamwork", it is purely every man for himself. But, as with every group, there are exceptions. As far as Krakauer, it is difficult to say. I believe that at the time, Krakauer did believe that on a mountain, it is every man for himself. But he also states that he has regret about his role in the events that unfolded, specifically, his role in the death of Andy Harris and Yasuko Namba. Because of this, I would also like to believe that if Krakauer found himself in a similar situation as the one on Everest, that he would be more willing to help rescue other climbers.
Clarissa Martinez
ReplyDelete2. I believe the reason it could be the same person just sees being a guide different from others because in the beginning he did leave them to climb the mountain alone. Also the way to earn the right to climb the mountain is not to be able to depend on others but yourself. It seems like he wanted the clients to experience Mount Everest the way a climber that has earned their spot on the mountain would. By the time the some of the clients get into serious trouble because of him he's there to help.
3. Being able to turn on those who need help that you could possibly provide them is a part of the climbing culture. If you decide to climb the mountain you should at least know a little about it. If you don't have any knowledge of climbing then you have no business climbing it. Because by the top the only goal is going to the summit and surviving. The person without knowledge will only get in the way or slow the party down. So yes, you can’t expect rescue or basic humanity in the climbing culture. Yes, most climber respect this code because it the only way to achieve the goal that most of the climbers have. Krakauer has a chance to help but he doesn’t making it seem like he does believe in this code of ethics.
Jose Chavez
ReplyDelete1. I think that even thought Hall and other guides had strict protocols to avoid mishaps, there were still many clients who were dead set on reaching the top. so when the turn around time came some of the clients ignored this and still climbed toward the top. the guides did not just want to leave right at 2 o'clock and leave other member behind so they decided to wait thus throwing them off too. Since everyone was running late they got caught up in the storm and they had gotten turned around and in the wrong direction during their descent. I don't think this was anyone one person fault because there was more than just one person who ignored this turn around time. Also, I don't think it was more the guides fault nor do I believe it was more the clients fault because the clients ignored the time but the guides did not enforce the rule to turn around.
2. During this whole story Boukreev says he does not help the clients. he believe that the clients should do this on their own or else they do not deserve to be on the mountain. I think Boukreev simply does this because he wants the clients to believe they will not be assisted and that they need too take it more serious and be more focused. But when it came to actual emergency Boukreev was ready to help and was also very worried about his team. I think he is willing to help because though he puts off an image that he will not help he really knows that he will be there for his team when they need him. He decides to climb higher faster and get down faster than his clients because he knows if he uses all of his energy by waiting and staying with them then he would be of no use when they actually needed him and he would not have the extra oxygen or food or other necessities needed for survival.
Preston Hawkins
ReplyDeleteQuestion 2:
I think Boukreev lived by the “teach a man to fish” lifestyle. He could have carried the party up the mountain and made it easy for them all to reach the top, but then the climbers would not have learned anything. Even though he left them to fend for themselves he still was an attentive enough guide to help his party out when they needed it. It’s like if your teacher answers all the questions for you, the student is not going to learn anything. The teacher makes the student try the hardest they can to do a problem but when the student starts slipping then the teacher will offer their help.
Question 3:
I could compare this to airline travel. In the event of an emergency you always secure your breathing mask before you assist others. Some people might just be greedy and not want to give up their supplies, but others are maybe just concerned with their well being. What if there is an emergency on the mountain and they are forced to carry a person, they would have needed that extra food or air to carry on.
Bessie-Mei Soh
ReplyDelete1. Well for one, previous easy-going climbing weather made them less wary and probably took them a bit off guard for the tempest that was to come. I suppose it's also a struggle each time they guide their customers to turn around and the appropriate time with the apex so close. This time, they didn't have the strength to win the struggle--a struggle that's expecially difficult due to mental impairment at altitude. I believe the guides are responsible, since they were the "leaders" and therefore enforcers, but at the same time many of the clients probably wouldn't have wanted to stop. Unfortunately, since things went bad, the guides are to "blame", but if things went well and they all summited and made it back safely, the guides would be to "thank".
4. When you watch someone on TV, you don't always get what they look like in real life. Editing, framing, camera angels, and lighting are amoung the many things that affect how the actor is seen through the "camera's" eyes. If you were to mean the person in real life, they might be much shorter than you though, and look much different in general than there onscreen persona. When someone turns real people into "characters" and real life events into a "plot" for a story, you are seeing things through that person's camera. How can you possibly trust something like that 100%? Krakauer even admits he got certain [i]people[/i] mixed up, which of course is probably due to the physical and mental debuffs of climbing Everest. So now, not only are we seeing this through a camera, but a severely dysfunctional camera. As far as it being hurtful, people who were in this experience firsthand or knew the people who were--maybe amoung the deceased--are definately going to find discomfort in seeing themselves and/or loves ones portrayed as a character that is probably not how they see the person, or is completely unlike their real-life namesake.
yay my fail attempt at italicizing...
Delete2. I think that bourkeev is the exact same. when reading these chapters I got the feeling that all he really wanted was to prove that he is better than everybody no matter what. he left his group unattended and went to the summit alone then he went back to camp 4, he didn't help his group at all. then when his group was in trouble he suddenly swooped in to save the day, and be labeled a hero and prove he is the best person on Everest.
ReplyDelete3. I think that to an extent people should expect less help when climbing Everest because you do know the risks, but I do not however believe that humanity just flies out the window at 8,000 meters. If the Japanese climbers actually wanted to help they could have given them some water or a little oxygen at the very least. I think most climbers would have at least tried to help them or at the very least put the people out of their misery. Same with krakaur, I believe he would have at least offered them some water or a little oxygen because people don't just lose their humanity half way up the damn thing.
Question 2
ReplyDeleteAs we have talked about people change after climbing miles with no oxygen, it becomes harder for them to think or to do anything. This is why he doesn't help at first. He wants his clients to work their hardest and to their full potential. Boukreev is not one to hold someones hand helping them the entire way, but i believe he was hired for a reason, when it actually comes down to it he will help, and he is one of the best so he will do his job well.
Question 3
It is a part of the culture, but I feel it is for good reason, not because you shouldn't expect help but because sometimes by helping those who are hurt and dying can bring death to yourself. Rather than one body you have two. As much as I would like to say yes everyone should be helped, it is not that black and white, is one person's life worth that of all the people who would be helping?
Jessica Olivar
ReplyDeleteQ2: Bourkeev seemed like he wanted to be the amateur climbers teacher and that he wanted them to figure out stuff themselves. He had a change of heart after all. He probably developed some sort of compassion to the other climbers and that's why he risked his life to save them. He realized that he was somewhat a burden.
Q3: I get that the Japanese decided not to help the other climbers because it could of put them in even more danger. If you climb a mountain, you know the risks.. you chose to do that. No one forced you to climb a mountain. If you are not very experienced in that, then why are you doing it ? Why would you risk your life?